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[ZZTop]

A good booker will jump on it and take notice and either adapt, as was said earlier in this post, or they booked it right in the first place. Any promoter who has to tell you who is face and heel, may as well habg it up because they aren't doing their job very well. My opinion only.

[BloodySavage]

i prefer the guys who kinda coast in the middle, that is if they can pull it off ( ala stone cold ) sum wrestlers who can do no wrong, Steen could do it in C4, he says rotten shit, and snot rockets fans, and many of us just keep cheerin

[ZZTop]

Personal feelings for the performers, the better talents in the business be it local or THE BIG GUYS, a great worker can flow back and forth between face and heel based on who he is wrestling. Look at MVP for instance, he fought Twiggy and he was unquestionably the heel, he fought Tyson Dux and he was the face. Now reversely, Take someone like Rush. He isn't going to be a face in C*4 and hasn't really been in a while due to our fans, now in CSE he can pull it off with ease but in C*4 No hope in hell

[gordo]

While the booker may be the one who determines who he's going to use as a face or heel it falls on the talent to get the desired reaction.

A lot of guys don't really have a clue how to play face or heel... let alone having a grasp on how to play both roles. They're usually better at one than the other (and it's always been that way.) Someone who can effectively work heel and face is the exception rather than the rule.

With the advent of the "anti-hero" Steve Austin & later to a lesser degree, The Rock - which are the guys a lot of today's young wrestler's grew up idolizing and wanting to emulate - there was a marked decrease in the number of people who know how to play either role and in today's landscape the "tweeners" outnumber the other two groups.

A good heel worker can make the fans hate them just as a good face worker can make the fans at least support them, if not overtly love them... and they can do that no matter what preconceived notions the fans may have about what and who they do or don't like... often in the span of one match but assuredly over the course of an angle. GOOD workers, that is.

Of course, one needs the leeway to actually work and with so many bookers AND talent laying out the entire matches ahead of time it doesn't leave much room for improvisation which is key to leading the fans where you want them to go.

There used to be a time where a booker could say "Ok, you're the face, you're the heel... this is the finish I want and (maybe) the direction I want the match to go to further this angle... you got 20 minutes". The workers would look at each other and say "see you out there" and that was it for pre-match preparation. How many guys on the scene today do you think could go out there and work a decent match on the fly?

A fucking dismal amount, that's how many... and that's why the fans think they're the ones calling the shots... and in many cases they are.

[Moonbase_Alpha]

Could "the fans calling shots" mean a better or poorer gate and how would you teach wrestlers to work on the fly?

[ZZTop]

Working on the fly is an ability  I  personally think, no performer should step into the ring without. I have seen a few that get "TURNED AROUND" and the rest of the match is horrible and I have seen ones that can come back from a disaster and have a great match. I am not sure it can be taught as much as some just "HAVE IT". I don't see it affecting the gate at all as only the hardcore fans would really be aware of the fact they may be "CALLING THE SHOTS" and they are the ones that are gonna go every show anyways/

[gordo]

It can be taught but even for those who eventually "get it" the process can be long and involves a lot of trial and error... practical experience as it were. This was a lot easier when the territories existed and guys would go on circuit tours, usually facing the same more experienced guy on every show and then, with that vet and others offering advice and tutoring, a young rookie would slowly learn what worked and what didn't.

Look at some of the old guys that are still around... they can have fans in the palm of their hands... without having to take more than one or two bumps (if that, in some cases.)

Guys that are out there doing 20+ bumps in an 8-10 minute match... trying to use - what do they call them nowadays?... "spots"? "moves"?... whatever - guys basically trashing their bodies to get pops or a response are working against themselves in the long term....

Firstly, by conditioning the fans to respond to "big moves" they are continually having to create even bigger (and thus more dangerous & damaging) moves to get that response because over time the crowds become bored or unimpressed with the moves that used to bring a "holy shit" chant. Remember when a superplex was a HUGE move? A match ender? Now, it's just one of a gazillion moves leading up to a false finish if it leads anywhere at all.

Nowhere was this escalating move severity more apparent - or as fast - than in hardcore. It used to be that doing ONE spot into barbed wire was a big deal. Now it's TKO's off ladders through flaming tables, sheets of glass and light-tube cabins. Shit, The Shiek had people freaking out for decades with just a PENCIL and maybe the occasional fireball. Now it's gone beyond weed-whackers, cacti and whatever else you can think of.

Secondly, A multi-bump per match philosophy doesn't lend itself to a long career. The human body, no matter how well it's developed can only take so much. A lot of these guys are going to be severely hurting units long before they reach the age of 40. I cringe every time I see guys on the indy circuit taking suplexes and other bumps out on the floor... especially when they're doing it in front of 30-80 people. Where is the logic in that?

A couple years ago I had the opportunity to work with Norman Smiley. While watching some of the other performers on the show Smiley turned to me and said "Wow, those guys just took more bumps in that match than I have in 10 years." I've heard similar statements from Greg Valentine, Honky, Beefcake, Pat Tanaka and numerous other guys who all made a living at pro wrestling... and still do in many cases. You ask any of them and they'll say yes, they live with the pain of years of abuse but they CAN still go because they worked smart and didn't use up their "bump ticket" by doing more than they had too.

There are some very smart guys working the Ontario scene... guys that get the job done without killing themselves... although I bet if you asked, they'd still say that they "do too much" because the business almost demands it thanks to the sheer number of guys who are going out and bumping like mad men in an effort to pull a response from fans.

I don't know because I haven't personally witnessed their program but I suspect that the Bodyslammers training facility (if that's what it's called - the new Styles brothers / RWE camp)... I bet they can attest to what I've said in this post and are probably a good place to go if Ottawa area workers or wannabes want to learn how to work without having to half kill themselves to get a reaction. Again, it's an educated guess because I've seen those guys work and the shows they produce. For the most part, they seem to espouse a work smart style that gets the job done with a minimum of risk of immediate or cumulative damage to one's body.

[ZZTop]

I refer to myself as Japanese style. I will applause for a great move or a huge bump, but I am actually more inclined to  Jump up and applause a great chain wrestling sequence or a move, reversal, move counter move. I am not a fan of the "MULTI BUMP" I appreciate them where they are needed to enhance the match.

[wrestlingfan1998]

About Tomassino, his English is horrible but I believe that he does all of his promos in English now to practice.

[Moonbase_Alpha]

It can be taught but even for those who eventually "get it" the process can be long and involves a lot of trial and error... practical experience as it were. This was a lot easier when the territories existed and guys would go on circuit tours, usually facing the same more experienced guy on every show and then, with that vet and others offering advice and tutoring, a young rookie would slowly learn what worked and what didn't.

Look at some of the old guys that are still around... they can have fans in the palm of their hands... without having to take more than one or two bumps (if that, in some cases.)

Guys that are out there doing 20+ bumps in an 8-10 minute match... trying to use - what do they call them nowadays?... "spots"? "moves"?... whatever - guys basically trashing their bodies to get pops or a response are working against themselves in the long term....

Firstly, by conditioning the fans to respond to "big moves" they are continually having to create even bigger (and thus more dangerous & damaging) moves to get that response because over time the crowds become bored or unimpressed with the moves that used to bring a "holy shit" chant. Remember when a superplex was a HUGE move? A match ender? Now, it's just one of a gazillion moves leading up to a false finish if it leads anywhere at all.

Nowhere was this escalating move severity more apparent - or as fast - than in hardcore. It used to be that doing ONE spot into barbed wire was a big deal. Now it's TKO's off ladders through flaming tables, sheets of glass and light-tube cabins. Shit, The Shiek had people freaking out for decades with just a PENCIL and maybe the occasional fireball. Now it's gone beyond weed-whackers, cacti and whatever else you can think of.

Secondly, A multi-bump per match philosophy doesn't lend itself to a long career. The human body, no matter how well it's developed can only take so much. A lot of these guys are going to be severely hurting units long before they reach the age of 40. I cringe every time I see guys on the indy circuit taking suplexes and other bumps out on the floor... especially when they're doing it in front of 30-80 people. Where is the logic in that?

A couple years ago I had the opportunity to work with Norman Smiley. While watching some of the other performers on the show Smiley turned to me and said "Wow, those guys just took more bumps in that match than I have in 10 years." I've heard similar statements from Greg Valentine, Honky, Beefcake, Pat Tanaka and numerous other guys who all made a living at pro wrestling... and still do in many cases. You ask any of them and they'll say yes, they live with the pain of years of abuse but they CAN still go because they worked smart and didn't use up their "bump ticket" by doing more than they had too.

There are some very smart guys working the Ontario scene... guys that get the job done without killing themselves... although I bet if you asked, they'd still say that they "do too much" because the business almost demands it thanks to the sheer number of guys who are going out and bumping like mad men in an effort to pull a response from fans.

I don't know because I haven't personally witnessed their program but I suspect that the Bodyslammers training facility (if that's what it's called - the new Styles brothers / RWE camp)... I bet they can attest to what I've said in this post and are probably a good place to go if Ottawa area workers or wannabes want to learn how to work without having to half kill themselves to get a reaction. Again, it's an educated guess because I've seen those guys work and the shows they produce. For the most part, they seem to espouse a work smart style that gets the job done with a minimum of risk of immediate or cumulative damage to one's body.

I believe MVP, Sara Del Rey, Misty Haven, Jae Rukin and Rahim Ali are good examples of "smart guys".